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ladydraceI already poked at this on Tumblr, but I'd like to expand and open this up for debate more, so here we go.
In 99% of the SPN fanfics I see, it seems a given that angels have no gender. As far as I can tell, the basis for this in canon is actually fairly slim.
Arguments for and against sex-less angels, according to my limited memory:
For:
-Raphael and Castiel using both a male and a female vessel.
-Castiel saying he spent a year as "waves of celestial intent", which presumably means he didn't have a body, and therefore no physical gender.
-Dean repeatedly referring to the angels as "junkless".
Against:
-The fact that Castiel calls a dead angel in a female vessel "sister".
-Castiel mentioning that his true form has a size (of the Chrysler building) and with physical form comes the possibility of gender.
-All the sex we see angels have. (Balthazar, Gabriel, Anna). I go with the statement here that to have sex with a human, you'll probably have to pick a physical gender at least for a while.
If I've missed any arguments, do let me know.
On the subject of Raphael switching the gender of his vessels: I seem to recall Castiel still calling Raphael "brother" so there are a number of theories I can offer on this. (If I indeed remember correctly. If not, ignore this.) Maybe the gender of the vessel is of secondary concern, but perhaps they can still have a preferred physical representation? Most of the angels do seem to pick vessels that reflect their personality or at the very least makes them seem professional and severe. It seems likely that if they do have a preferred gender, that their vessels would mirror it.
On the topic of true form: All we know about it is that Castiel's is the size of a skyscraper and that looking at it is baaaaad for human eyes. It's also suggested that they have wings (with the shadow display of Castiel's and the lightning show Raphael gave us) but that could very well just be an intimidation tactic. As for the "wave of celestial intent", it's never said that this is an angel's true form. For all we know, it could simply be yet another possible representation of their beings. Zachariah also said that in Heaven he has a head of a lion, but again, this could be just one more possible form of many. So what kind of gender-details angels' true form might include is anyone's guess.
Junkless: This is only Dean's term. Nowhere is it stated where he gets this impression from. It could be just him trying to be insulting in his usual way, or I could put on my shipper goggles and wax on about how it's the only way he can make himself feel comfortable about his bond with Castiel. But I digress.
Brothers and Sisters: This one is a pickle, because most of the times it's even mentioned, we only hear of the brothers. And more often than not, the angels are in male vessels. We only see very few females. (Anna, Rachel, the dead sister and possibly Raphael. Did I forget anyone?) But with the exception of Raphael, even the angels themselves follow the patterns of human pronouns. Anna is always referred to as "she" and Castiel is always a "he", even while he's wearing Claire Novak.
Sex: This one is secondary, because it's always possible that whatever sexual inclinations they seem to have is purely borrowed from their vessels. Anna does make it sound like angels have no sexual desire to speak of when in their natural state, however, there is one scene that suggests something different. When Dean asks Castiel if he's a virgin and he replies "I've never had occasion, okay?" That right there opens up a whole can of worms. Because he could easily have said that "angels don't have sex" or "I feel no desire for sexual relations" or something along those lines. Instead, he makes it sound like it's something even angels endeavor to try at least sometimes and he even seems slightly embarrassed that he hasn't had any yet. Although, this could just be Dean's attitude to sex making Castiel uncomfortable. For the purpose of the whorehouse at least, Castiel does play the part of a male. And since we've also seen evidence of a boner, we can only assume that he's also "fully functional". So while angels might be without gender, they are certainly not "sex-less" as such.
All these are valid points, but it still doesn't give us any real clues to what sort of gender identity (if any) angels might have in their true forms.
Thoughts, comments, opposing arguments? Lay it on me!
In 99% of the SPN fanfics I see, it seems a given that angels have no gender. As far as I can tell, the basis for this in canon is actually fairly slim.
Arguments for and against sex-less angels, according to my limited memory:
For:
-Raphael and Castiel using both a male and a female vessel.
-Castiel saying he spent a year as "waves of celestial intent", which presumably means he didn't have a body, and therefore no physical gender.
-Dean repeatedly referring to the angels as "junkless".
Against:
-The fact that Castiel calls a dead angel in a female vessel "sister".
-Castiel mentioning that his true form has a size (of the Chrysler building) and with physical form comes the possibility of gender.
-All the sex we see angels have. (Balthazar, Gabriel, Anna). I go with the statement here that to have sex with a human, you'll probably have to pick a physical gender at least for a while.
If I've missed any arguments, do let me know.
On the subject of Raphael switching the gender of his vessels: I seem to recall Castiel still calling Raphael "brother" so there are a number of theories I can offer on this. (If I indeed remember correctly. If not, ignore this.) Maybe the gender of the vessel is of secondary concern, but perhaps they can still have a preferred physical representation? Most of the angels do seem to pick vessels that reflect their personality or at the very least makes them seem professional and severe. It seems likely that if they do have a preferred gender, that their vessels would mirror it.
On the topic of true form: All we know about it is that Castiel's is the size of a skyscraper and that looking at it is baaaaad for human eyes. It's also suggested that they have wings (with the shadow display of Castiel's and the lightning show Raphael gave us) but that could very well just be an intimidation tactic. As for the "wave of celestial intent", it's never said that this is an angel's true form. For all we know, it could simply be yet another possible representation of their beings. Zachariah also said that in Heaven he has a head of a lion, but again, this could be just one more possible form of many. So what kind of gender-details angels' true form might include is anyone's guess.
Junkless: This is only Dean's term. Nowhere is it stated where he gets this impression from. It could be just him trying to be insulting in his usual way, or I could put on my shipper goggles and wax on about how it's the only way he can make himself feel comfortable about his bond with Castiel. But I digress.
Brothers and Sisters: This one is a pickle, because most of the times it's even mentioned, we only hear of the brothers. And more often than not, the angels are in male vessels. We only see very few females. (Anna, Rachel, the dead sister and possibly Raphael. Did I forget anyone?) But with the exception of Raphael, even the angels themselves follow the patterns of human pronouns. Anna is always referred to as "she" and Castiel is always a "he", even while he's wearing Claire Novak.
Sex: This one is secondary, because it's always possible that whatever sexual inclinations they seem to have is purely borrowed from their vessels. Anna does make it sound like angels have no sexual desire to speak of when in their natural state, however, there is one scene that suggests something different. When Dean asks Castiel if he's a virgin and he replies "I've never had occasion, okay?" That right there opens up a whole can of worms. Because he could easily have said that "angels don't have sex" or "I feel no desire for sexual relations" or something along those lines. Instead, he makes it sound like it's something even angels endeavor to try at least sometimes and he even seems slightly embarrassed that he hasn't had any yet. Although, this could just be Dean's attitude to sex making Castiel uncomfortable. For the purpose of the whorehouse at least, Castiel does play the part of a male. And since we've also seen evidence of a boner, we can only assume that he's also "fully functional". So while angels might be without gender, they are certainly not "sex-less" as such.
All these are valid points, but it still doesn't give us any real clues to what sort of gender identity (if any) angels might have in their true forms.
Thoughts, comments, opposing arguments? Lay it on me!
no subject
Date: 2012-04-08 07:15 am (UTC)But that is no fun! And no reason not to try to stick things together in interesting ways! :)
I think our most awkward terms here are "gender identity", "sex", and "true forms". Because we just have absolutely no information about how physical angels' true forms actually are (or in fact to what extent an angel's sense of identity is invested in them), the concept of physical sex obviously depends on that but is subject to change when vessels, and... well, gender identity depends on all of the above. :)
One thing (for which we don't really have basis on the show, but) - I suspect that, as angels don't reproduce, they probably don't have a binary sex system in their true forms. They might, however, incline towards one gender or another in terms of their own identity, but probably only from watching humans / thinking about themselves in human terms; otherwise, I suspect, a far more fundamental category to a sense of self would be, eg, rank, garrison, type (seraph/cherubim/archangel etc). But that's speculation that strays quite a way from I-can-support-it-from-the-text...
My take on the question of brother/sister (ie, the perceived/chosen gender) is just that they do incline more towards one than the other, and that this isn't really affected by the vessel they take - although possibly, given the leisure, it might affect their choice of vessel, if there's more than one available. Gabriel and Balthazar are both happy playing with more overt forms of gender roles (the very first conversation with Gabriel-the-Trickster, for example, being kind of crass and inclined to fixate on the sex in loud and kind of explicit ways - not to say that's what all men do by any means, but that's certainly one way to play male, presenting yourself as that type). Anna naturally is more comfortable being female now after a human life in that body, whether she was before or not.
Castiel, on the other hand, is (at least initially) as confused by Dean's gender-based assumptions (the idea that 'junkless' is an insult, calling Sam or Cas girly names or deriding certain behaviour as feminine) as he is by his pop-culture references, so you could say that those manifestations of gender roles at least are all human...
And yes, obviously, as we've seen, they're capable of inhabiting the body to such an extent that they're capable of sex. :) You could argue that this is exclusive to vesseldom (after all, angels don't need to reproduce so they don't need it for the same reasons, at least, and the exchange-of-fluids aspect would be redundant); or you could speculate that there's some angelic equivalent, some kind of emotional or semi-physical union (depending on how you want to imagine their true forms) that brings pleasure to both parties. If the latter, Castiel might be conflating human sex with that when he says that he's never had occasion. Or he could just be getting all flustered because this is something he knows Dean places a lot of importance on, and he knows there are other angels out there who are more experiences in earthly pleasures than he is himself...
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 09:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-08 08:36 pm (UTC)I pretty much agree with all of your observations on this. I especially like the idea that while the angels might not have a gender identity of their own, some of them might favor a certain sex in their vessel. This actually brings something else to mind.
Ordinary angels like Castiel seem to have more choice in vessels and it's therefore plausible that they can actually choose what suits them best. But Raphael is an archangel, with only a very limited pool of vessels to choose from, that are able to contain him. So being called brother while in a female vessel could be a way of demonstrating that given the choice, Raphael does have a preference. Castiel, on the other hand, seemed quite happy to stay in Claire Novak, so I doubt he ever really thought about it. He was a soldier and a warrior, and given how baffled he seems about all things Earthly, I sincerely doubt he's spent any significant amount of time on Earth before. So it's possible he simply didn't have time to form a preference, if indeed it mattered to him at all.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-18 11:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 09:34 am (UTC)So yeah, let's go with convenience. ;o)
no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 10:14 am (UTC)Not that this is gender, strictly speaking, but it,s tangential. There,s a whole host of other identi issues that come with having a bodyanyway, the cultural and emotional and hoirmonal associations with physicality. I don,t think angels would particularly unearsand why the gender one would be also near the top of humans, list, since it seems less intrinsic to the way angels seethe world than it is for humans and argh I hate typing on this thing.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-19 10:21 am (UTC)DID SOMEBODY SAY FANFICTION?!?
Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-17 03:07 am (UTC)The 'brother/sister' and 'he/she' usage in the show struck me as unusual for the supposedly genderless angels. But human languages express genders differently - for example, Chinese uses the same word for 'he/she/it' whereas other languages might have no neuter pronoun and use 'he/she' for both people and inanimate things.
If angels have no personal gender in their native forms, perhaps their own language has a different word, with meaning and weight comparable to 'brother' or 'sister' ('comrade' is one of the few ungendered, nonromantic terms I can think of for English.) Or, if there are four dozen angel genders, we certainly don't have the terminology for that. So when they are forced to use human language, and English specifically, to communicate, maybe some concepts are lost in translation (along the lines of "It's funnier in Enochian.") Human tongues just might not have the right glossary to get the point across, and the angels make do with what's closest in meaning.
I sort of really love this topic, as gender studies are dear to my heart, but Supernatural's not on your average reading/watching list in gender theory circles. So, thanks for bringing 'em together!
Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-18 09:59 am (UTC)I totally agree with your ideas on language of gender. Since human ears can't even tolerate the sound of angels' voices, it's hard to even fathom what kinds of nuances their language and/or society might have. I'm particularly fond of the idea that angels are either more fluid in their gender identity, or simply have a lot more options than humans, so when they're on Earth they'll probably refer to themselves as the gender that comes closest, even if it's still far off the mark.
The physical gender is kind of another pickle, because Supernatural doesn't stick exclusively to any kind of lore. As far as I can see, so far they borrow from sources like the bible and Davidson's Dictionary of angels, but they also freely deviate from them when it suits their storylines. So for all we poor, uninformed fans know, angels could be humpin' away in heaven making babies or fledgelings on a daily basis.
Anna seems to believe that angels don't have sex, but then again, she was higher ranking and might have had a different view of things. Those in positions of power often have to make the best possible examples for the underlings. She also seemed to think that angels lacked emotion, but we clearly see time and time again that this just isn't true.
One big, fat clue is still the fact that Castiel seems embarrassed over never having had sex. Why would he be, if angels never felt the need/urge to have sex? Unless of course he's just feeding off Dean's emotions on the subject, which hasn't been the case much in the past.
If we borrow from the bible for a moment, we can deduce that the angels were created by god, but at least with humans, they were able to produce offspring. So in that sense, they can in fact reproduce. Whether they would want to or need to is an entirely different matter.
And for the record, my personal theory on this is that no, they don't need all those messy fluids, or even two (or more) different genders to make it happen, but that doesn't mean that they can't do it. ;o)
Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-18 11:44 pm (UTC)Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 12:18 am (UTC)Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 09:36 am (UTC)Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 09:36 am (UTC)Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 12:15 am (UTC)Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 09:38 am (UTC)Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 10:10 am (UTC)... Oh god. Sherlock vs Balthazar?
AND THEN THERE WERE EXPLOSIONS.
Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 10:26 am (UTC)Balthazar and Sherlock will just be sassing each other out like woah, and there will be Sam and Dean just watching with Watson.
John: "So... tea?"
Dean: "Got any beer?"
John: "You don't want to see Sherlock intoxicated.."
Dean: "... is that a no?"
John: "That's a no."
Sam: *rolls eyes* "Coffee?"
John: "I'll go see if Mrs. Hudson has any."
Dean: "Why the hell did we come to England anyway?"