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ladydraceI already poked at this on Tumblr, but I'd like to expand and open this up for debate more, so here we go.
In 99% of the SPN fanfics I see, it seems a given that angels have no gender. As far as I can tell, the basis for this in canon is actually fairly slim.
Arguments for and against sex-less angels, according to my limited memory:
For:
-Raphael and Castiel using both a male and a female vessel.
-Castiel saying he spent a year as "waves of celestial intent", which presumably means he didn't have a body, and therefore no physical gender.
-Dean repeatedly referring to the angels as "junkless".
Against:
-The fact that Castiel calls a dead angel in a female vessel "sister".
-Castiel mentioning that his true form has a size (of the Chrysler building) and with physical form comes the possibility of gender.
-All the sex we see angels have. (Balthazar, Gabriel, Anna). I go with the statement here that to have sex with a human, you'll probably have to pick a physical gender at least for a while.
If I've missed any arguments, do let me know.
On the subject of Raphael switching the gender of his vessels: I seem to recall Castiel still calling Raphael "brother" so there are a number of theories I can offer on this. (If I indeed remember correctly. If not, ignore this.) Maybe the gender of the vessel is of secondary concern, but perhaps they can still have a preferred physical representation? Most of the angels do seem to pick vessels that reflect their personality or at the very least makes them seem professional and severe. It seems likely that if they do have a preferred gender, that their vessels would mirror it.
On the topic of true form: All we know about it is that Castiel's is the size of a skyscraper and that looking at it is baaaaad for human eyes. It's also suggested that they have wings (with the shadow display of Castiel's and the lightning show Raphael gave us) but that could very well just be an intimidation tactic. As for the "wave of celestial intent", it's never said that this is an angel's true form. For all we know, it could simply be yet another possible representation of their beings. Zachariah also said that in Heaven he has a head of a lion, but again, this could be just one more possible form of many. So what kind of gender-details angels' true form might include is anyone's guess.
Junkless: This is only Dean's term. Nowhere is it stated where he gets this impression from. It could be just him trying to be insulting in his usual way, or I could put on my shipper goggles and wax on about how it's the only way he can make himself feel comfortable about his bond with Castiel. But I digress.
Brothers and Sisters: This one is a pickle, because most of the times it's even mentioned, we only hear of the brothers. And more often than not, the angels are in male vessels. We only see very few females. (Anna, Rachel, the dead sister and possibly Raphael. Did I forget anyone?) But with the exception of Raphael, even the angels themselves follow the patterns of human pronouns. Anna is always referred to as "she" and Castiel is always a "he", even while he's wearing Claire Novak.
Sex: This one is secondary, because it's always possible that whatever sexual inclinations they seem to have is purely borrowed from their vessels. Anna does make it sound like angels have no sexual desire to speak of when in their natural state, however, there is one scene that suggests something different. When Dean asks Castiel if he's a virgin and he replies "I've never had occasion, okay?" That right there opens up a whole can of worms. Because he could easily have said that "angels don't have sex" or "I feel no desire for sexual relations" or something along those lines. Instead, he makes it sound like it's something even angels endeavor to try at least sometimes and he even seems slightly embarrassed that he hasn't had any yet. Although, this could just be Dean's attitude to sex making Castiel uncomfortable. For the purpose of the whorehouse at least, Castiel does play the part of a male. And since we've also seen evidence of a boner, we can only assume that he's also "fully functional". So while angels might be without gender, they are certainly not "sex-less" as such.
All these are valid points, but it still doesn't give us any real clues to what sort of gender identity (if any) angels might have in their true forms.
Thoughts, comments, opposing arguments? Lay it on me!
In 99% of the SPN fanfics I see, it seems a given that angels have no gender. As far as I can tell, the basis for this in canon is actually fairly slim.
Arguments for and against sex-less angels, according to my limited memory:
For:
-Raphael and Castiel using both a male and a female vessel.
-Castiel saying he spent a year as "waves of celestial intent", which presumably means he didn't have a body, and therefore no physical gender.
-Dean repeatedly referring to the angels as "junkless".
Against:
-The fact that Castiel calls a dead angel in a female vessel "sister".
-Castiel mentioning that his true form has a size (of the Chrysler building) and with physical form comes the possibility of gender.
-All the sex we see angels have. (Balthazar, Gabriel, Anna). I go with the statement here that to have sex with a human, you'll probably have to pick a physical gender at least for a while.
If I've missed any arguments, do let me know.
On the subject of Raphael switching the gender of his vessels: I seem to recall Castiel still calling Raphael "brother" so there are a number of theories I can offer on this. (If I indeed remember correctly. If not, ignore this.) Maybe the gender of the vessel is of secondary concern, but perhaps they can still have a preferred physical representation? Most of the angels do seem to pick vessels that reflect their personality or at the very least makes them seem professional and severe. It seems likely that if they do have a preferred gender, that their vessels would mirror it.
On the topic of true form: All we know about it is that Castiel's is the size of a skyscraper and that looking at it is baaaaad for human eyes. It's also suggested that they have wings (with the shadow display of Castiel's and the lightning show Raphael gave us) but that could very well just be an intimidation tactic. As for the "wave of celestial intent", it's never said that this is an angel's true form. For all we know, it could simply be yet another possible representation of their beings. Zachariah also said that in Heaven he has a head of a lion, but again, this could be just one more possible form of many. So what kind of gender-details angels' true form might include is anyone's guess.
Junkless: This is only Dean's term. Nowhere is it stated where he gets this impression from. It could be just him trying to be insulting in his usual way, or I could put on my shipper goggles and wax on about how it's the only way he can make himself feel comfortable about his bond with Castiel. But I digress.
Brothers and Sisters: This one is a pickle, because most of the times it's even mentioned, we only hear of the brothers. And more often than not, the angels are in male vessels. We only see very few females. (Anna, Rachel, the dead sister and possibly Raphael. Did I forget anyone?) But with the exception of Raphael, even the angels themselves follow the patterns of human pronouns. Anna is always referred to as "she" and Castiel is always a "he", even while he's wearing Claire Novak.
Sex: This one is secondary, because it's always possible that whatever sexual inclinations they seem to have is purely borrowed from their vessels. Anna does make it sound like angels have no sexual desire to speak of when in their natural state, however, there is one scene that suggests something different. When Dean asks Castiel if he's a virgin and he replies "I've never had occasion, okay?" That right there opens up a whole can of worms. Because he could easily have said that "angels don't have sex" or "I feel no desire for sexual relations" or something along those lines. Instead, he makes it sound like it's something even angels endeavor to try at least sometimes and he even seems slightly embarrassed that he hasn't had any yet. Although, this could just be Dean's attitude to sex making Castiel uncomfortable. For the purpose of the whorehouse at least, Castiel does play the part of a male. And since we've also seen evidence of a boner, we can only assume that he's also "fully functional". So while angels might be without gender, they are certainly not "sex-less" as such.
All these are valid points, but it still doesn't give us any real clues to what sort of gender identity (if any) angels might have in their true forms.
Thoughts, comments, opposing arguments? Lay it on me!
Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-17 03:07 am (UTC)The 'brother/sister' and 'he/she' usage in the show struck me as unusual for the supposedly genderless angels. But human languages express genders differently - for example, Chinese uses the same word for 'he/she/it' whereas other languages might have no neuter pronoun and use 'he/she' for both people and inanimate things.
If angels have no personal gender in their native forms, perhaps their own language has a different word, with meaning and weight comparable to 'brother' or 'sister' ('comrade' is one of the few ungendered, nonromantic terms I can think of for English.) Or, if there are four dozen angel genders, we certainly don't have the terminology for that. So when they are forced to use human language, and English specifically, to communicate, maybe some concepts are lost in translation (along the lines of "It's funnier in Enochian.") Human tongues just might not have the right glossary to get the point across, and the angels make do with what's closest in meaning.
I sort of really love this topic, as gender studies are dear to my heart, but Supernatural's not on your average reading/watching list in gender theory circles. So, thanks for bringing 'em together!
Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-18 09:59 am (UTC)I totally agree with your ideas on language of gender. Since human ears can't even tolerate the sound of angels' voices, it's hard to even fathom what kinds of nuances their language and/or society might have. I'm particularly fond of the idea that angels are either more fluid in their gender identity, or simply have a lot more options than humans, so when they're on Earth they'll probably refer to themselves as the gender that comes closest, even if it's still far off the mark.
The physical gender is kind of another pickle, because Supernatural doesn't stick exclusively to any kind of lore. As far as I can see, so far they borrow from sources like the bible and Davidson's Dictionary of angels, but they also freely deviate from them when it suits their storylines. So for all we poor, uninformed fans know, angels could be humpin' away in heaven making babies or fledgelings on a daily basis.
Anna seems to believe that angels don't have sex, but then again, she was higher ranking and might have had a different view of things. Those in positions of power often have to make the best possible examples for the underlings. She also seemed to think that angels lacked emotion, but we clearly see time and time again that this just isn't true.
One big, fat clue is still the fact that Castiel seems embarrassed over never having had sex. Why would he be, if angels never felt the need/urge to have sex? Unless of course he's just feeding off Dean's emotions on the subject, which hasn't been the case much in the past.
If we borrow from the bible for a moment, we can deduce that the angels were created by god, but at least with humans, they were able to produce offspring. So in that sense, they can in fact reproduce. Whether they would want to or need to is an entirely different matter.
And for the record, my personal theory on this is that no, they don't need all those messy fluids, or even two (or more) different genders to make it happen, but that doesn't mean that they can't do it. ;o)
Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-18 11:44 pm (UTC)Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 12:18 am (UTC)Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 09:36 am (UTC)Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 09:36 am (UTC)Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 12:15 am (UTC)Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 09:38 am (UTC)Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 10:10 am (UTC)... Oh god. Sherlock vs Balthazar?
AND THEN THERE WERE EXPLOSIONS.
Re: Angels and gender
Date: 2012-04-19 10:26 am (UTC)Balthazar and Sherlock will just be sassing each other out like woah, and there will be Sam and Dean just watching with Watson.
John: "So... tea?"
Dean: "Got any beer?"
John: "You don't want to see Sherlock intoxicated.."
Dean: "... is that a no?"
John: "That's a no."
Sam: *rolls eyes* "Coffee?"
John: "I'll go see if Mrs. Hudson has any."
Dean: "Why the hell did we come to England anyway?"